September 19, 2014

"I decided since then to trust myself as the arbiter of what’s 'enough' and have turned down plenty of offers since, and because I have yet to feel any sexual attraction to anyone..."

"... I have never allowed anyone else to talk me into anything I know I don’t desire. I think I’d recognize it if it happened to me. Most other people find it unmistakable. If a food smells delicious to everyone else but bland or bad to me, I don’t owe anyone the demonstration of actually eating it before I’m 'allowed' to say I don’t want to eat the dish."

From "You’re about as sexually attractive to me as a turtle: Coming out as asexual in a hypersexual culture," by Tracy Clark-Flory. I appreciated the analogy, because I have another "a-" — anosmia. And I've long observed the difficulty of achieving awareness of the separation between what you actually want and what everyone else seems to act like they agree that everyone wants.

And I've also been thinking a lot lately about the one-sidedness of much of the propaganda that we're exposed to. The pro-sex propaganda in our culture — like the pro-travel propaganda and the pro-education propaganda — is pervasive, and the anti- arguments are scarcely seen. That doesn't mean there aren't cogent things to say on the other side, just that people are not finding it in their interest to put effort into exposing that side. So I like when someone is inspired to correct the balance. It can help all of us think more clearly about what we really want.

Also: Clark-Flory explains — intelligently — how masturbation is not necessarily inconsistent with asexuality. Asexuality is defined as a lack of sexual desire directed at anyone. Think about it. You might try to say that if the purported asexual masturbates, she's experiencing sexual desire directed at herself, but that doesn't make sense, because we don't normally talk that way about masturbation, otherwise we would think of all masturbation as homosexual.

54 comments:

Hagar said...

Reminds me of an old - very old - Bennett Cerf joke:
The young wife of a freshman Congressman from Wyoming attended her first big social event in Washington and was informed by a senior Senator's wife that in Boston, good breeding was considered essential (obviously this was before the Kennedys). To which the young Congressman'ss wife replied: "Well, in Wyoming we also think good sex is important, but after all, there are other things in life too!"

Anonymous said...

masturbation:asexuality :: suicide:murder

Anonymous said...

Spoken like a white woman who has never had her cock sucked.

It is turtles all the way down...

Anonymous said...

Next thing will be asexual white women claiming that unwanted masturbation is rape.

It is turtles all the way down...

Anonymous said...

What do white women write about when they are done writing about their vaginas?

Trick question: they are NEVER done writing about their vaginas.

White women problems.

It is turtles all the way down...

Hagar said...

In most cases when a male starts to get ardent and the woman does not want to be bothered,all she has to do is say: "What's that airplane?" and he will go "Where, where?", or "The lock on the front door sticks," and he will say,"I can fix that!" and rush off to get his tools.

I am told that such lightweight diversionary tactics will not work on a female with sex on her mind.

Anonymous said...

She's willing to classify and categorize herself, even present her own experiences as a condition perhaps worthy of classification in a group equal to any other, and perhaps deserving of medical recognition.


Whatever's going on with her,the ideologues at Salon gather like flies because radical individualism and revolutionary freedom, constant puerile talk about sex, and arranging people into categories with the allure of science is pretty much what they do.

It's pretty much all they do. And it's where the logic in their ideology leads.

Paul said...

From the looks of her it's no great loss.

So what's the point? Somebody is missing a normal libido. So what? Certain people are absent any one of a number of normal attributes.

However female solipsism is never in short supply.

Robert Cook said...

"From the looks of her it's no great loss."

I'm sure you're George Clooney's twin, Paul, and have good reason to sneer at normal looking people for being ugly trolls.

"...female solipsism is never in short supply."

Why assume this is only about females? Asexuality, the lack of sexual desire, is found in both women and men.

Anonymous said...

"Somebody is missing a normal libido."

I don't think she is missing a libido, because she masterbates.

I'd say she has a mental disorder and needs help. But then that would be push back against this propaganda where everyone is normal, no matter how crazy they are.

glenn said...

More Fart Noises.

chillblaine said...

"But mental health and even physical health practitioners are prone to assuming that asexuality is only understandable as a disorder."

Unasked by the interviewer is the one question that would have been among my first, "have you ever been abused?"

My wife is a clinical psychologist. Sometimes she tells me that my behavior is classic 'oppositional defiant disorder.' I playfully tell her that is not a disorder, but my regular 'order.'

glenn said...

Or


"Children should be seen and not heard."

Anonymous said...

Red Robert, such a gentleman, perhaps you can find space for her at the next meeting?

***Reading Room 3 this week and no slide projector, I'm told, as a homeless patron urinated on it.

****Even though the refreshments will be those of the capitalist oppressor, their sugary drinks will not dampen our spirits, brother.

We shall soon control the means of production and make healthy drinks for all! Jobs for everybody!

Yaarrrgghhhh!

Anonymous said...

Red Robert, such a gentleman, perhaps you can find space for her at the next meeting?

***Reading Room 3 this week and no slide projector, I'm told, as a homeless patron urinated on it.

****Even though the refreshments will be those of the capitalist oppressor, their sugary drinks will not dampen our spirits, brother.

We shall soon control the means of production and make healthy drinks for all! Jobs for everybody!

Yaarrrgghhhh!

Kylos said...

I've heard the claim that masturbation is homosexual, so there's some precedent...

But I think you're defining asexuality wrong. It's not a lack of desire for others; it's a lack of sexual desire, period. And masturbation is definitely about sexual desire. It's a desire for sexual pleasure, not a desire for another person.

From personal experience, I believe that sexual desire is inherently about personal pleasure and is not biologically directed at anyone or any gender. Personality and environment/experiences can cause us to seek to share our sexuality with another, but sexuality is profoundly personal and selfish and we only share when we find someone we admire and trust.

BarrySanders20 said...

"You’re about as sexually attractive to me as a turtle"

It really is turtles all the way down.

Sex, sex, sex. It's all those turtles ever think about.

Kylos said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
traditionalguy said...

Is serial abstinence like serial monogamy; Just what people do until they are triggered to do something else?

Normal men have a trigger called breasts that by-passes the abstinence center in our brains. Keep them semi visible ladies, and Adam's descendants will be men.

Ann Althouse said...

"It is turtles all the way down…"

And we're not sexually attracted to any of them.

Bob Boyd said...

This reminded me of a similar article I saw when I picked up a copy of 'Inspire' at the doctor's office the other day. The angle of the piece was sympathetic to the the plight of a young jihadi who puts up with a lot of teasing from his fellows.
The poor guy suffers from ovine asexuality and it plays hell with his social and professional life.

Bob Boyd said...

Ann Althouse said...
"It is turtles all the way down…"

And we're not sexually attracted to any of them.


You know that one is kinda cute... about a third of the way down? See it?

Michael K said...

Salon is a trip. When the jihadi comes at the editorial board, just before he cuts their heads off, they will ask him if he had enough sex as a young man.

Paul said...

Yo. Robert Cook. Apparently you don't know what solipsism is. Look it up.

George Clooney? No. But good enough looking to always have very pretty girlfriends and now a gorgeous wife.

Unknown said...

I think you left out a word..
"people are not finding it in their to put effort" not finding it in their "being"? their makeup? libido?

Nonapod said...

OK people, having sex with turtles is where I draw the line, even when they go all the way down.

Michael K said...

"having sex with turtles is where I draw the line, even when they go all the way down."

Especially snapping turtles.

Bob Boyd said...

That's how the world ends: the whole thing collapses because one guy can't resist pulling a turtle out of the stack to gratify a whimsical desire for a novel sexual experience.

Fernandinande said...

Asexuality is defined as a lack of sexual desire directed at anyone.

Not by dictionaries, it isn't.

traditionalguy said...

The unmoved mover paradox all the way down sounds like hyper stubbornness. The need is for turtle food trails cleverly set out until the attraction starts up and the Old Turtle's shell cracks. Then she is free.

Robert Cook said...

"Yo. Robert Cook. Apparently you don't know what solipsism is. Look it up."

Yo, Paul, I do know what it means. Perhaps you need to clarify what you meant by "female solipsism" as it pertains to the article under discussion.

As for your love life, how fortunate for you that you are good looking "enough" to have always had pretty girlfriends and now a gorgeous wife. How ugly of you to disparage the subject of the article for her looks.

Big Mike said...

You have anosmia? If the Olbrich Gardens has Amorphophallus titanium on display you might be the only person who can truly enjoy it for a lengthy period of time.

Scott M said...

Morrissey's had this niche covered for decades.

n.n said...

Asexual was originally defined as genderless. Neither male nor female. Perhaps confused. It acquired other denotations through the years, mostly to satisfy political agendas.

Masturbation is an act of self-stimulation, which may be physical, mental, or emotional. It is a degenerative (i.e. consuming) process, similar to recycling, or human evolution, represented by the visual metaphor of the Ouroboros.

Anonymous said...

Robert Cook wrote;

" How ugly of you to disparage the subject of the article for her looks."

C'mon, there isn't anything ugly about a person recognizing someone lack of beauty and pointing it out with such an article.

Imagine a model making the same comments. You don't, because you know a model would get lot's of action. Or imagine a man making the same comments, a man who is wealthy, or famous, or good looking, etc.

Why is it a homely woman who is like this?

SteveR said...

"Jack" "Jack Meoff" "Please pick up the white courtesy phone"

I don't understand the need to label everything. There are too many possibilities.

The Crack Emcee said...

"That doesn't mean there aren't cogent things to say on the other side, just that people are not finding it in their to put effort into exposing that side."

Please. The problem is the attacks we suffer for saying anything of the kind. Only a few slip through.

The rest of us are forced to eat it - to the sound of excuses and maniacal laughter,...

The Crack Emcee said...

I should've said only a few are "allowed" to slip through,...

The Cracker Emcee Refulgent said...

"Why is it a homely woman who is like this?"

Actually a valid point (though I have no idea if it has any bearing in this case). People can be powerfully conditioned, intellectually or emotionally, by their circumstances. Or more precisely, how they internalize their experience of their circumstances.

Paul said...

"Yo, Paul, I do know what it means. Perhaps you need to clarify what you meant by "female solipsism" as it pertains to the article under discussion.

As for your love life, how fortunate for you that you are good looking "enough" to have always had pretty girlfriends and now a gorgeous wife. How ugly of you to disparage the subject of the article for her looks."

No clarification needed for reasonably intelligent people, so too bad for you.

Being called ugly by a man as delusional as you, Robert Cook, only serves to elicit a chuckle.

Anonymous said...

I believe her when she says she fends off offers from guys taking up the challenge to "fix" her. You can see a bit of that reaction in the comments. However, she's also feeding into it with the unnecessarily aggressive (if quotable) turtle remark - especially considering the shrinkage connotations of "turtle dick."


I had a very beautiful friend that had little to no sex drive, but plenty of boyfriends because that was just there like a trust fund. I don't think the guys even noticed the difference and she just got off on the vanity/attention/being $poiled aspect without having it ever convert to an actual self-directing, hormonal sex drive... so it all worked out, more or less. "Compliant" is the words that comes to mind.

Robert Cook said...

Paul, I'll take it you don't really know what you meant, and were just being snarky.

Robert Cook said...

"Imagine a model making the same comments. You don't, because you know a model would get lot's of action."

Do you mean the comments made by the woman in the article? I don't assume a woman is more or less interested in sex based on her relative attractiveness. If the most beautiful woman in the world (for the sake of argument, as preferences vary) claimed she was asexual and had no interest in sex with others, no desire for others, I would be no more surprised than hearing it from an ordinary looking woman. (And this woman is ordinary looking, not homely. If she were interested in attracting others in s sexual way and groomed herself accordingly, she would look very different than here. Some "beautiful" models are homely when seen without any makeup.)

"Or imagine a man making the same comments, a man who is wealthy, or famous, or good looking, etc."

Again, I don't get your correlating one's looks or wealth or fame with their interest in sex. I am guessing maybe you see the woman's claims of having no interest in sex with others as having to do with her lacking those attributes that (in your view) would make others pursue her romantically or sexually, that it is a form of sour grapes on her part, rather than an honest admission of her nature.

n.n said...

Is Clark-Flory's need and demand to normalize her masturbation lifestyle a public response to her parents, grandparents, or coworkers' needling that she settle down, marry, and have children? Is she looking for community support? Perhaps asexual matrimony will address this minority's needs.

I Have Misplaced My Pants said...

Robert Cook--your comments are consistently cogent, interesting and decent and I appreciate your presence here at Althouse very much. Thanks for enriching this space.

Paul said...

"Paul, I'll take it you don't really know what you meant, and were just being snarky.'

Take it any way you want but I know exactly what I mean and any red pill man will know too.

And we are laughing at you.

The Cracker Emcee Refulgent said...

How much of sexual preference, hetero-, homo-, or asexual, is the result of conditioned alienation? Given that the first is driven by a survival imperative, it's not far-fetched that subconscious conditioning plays a big role in the latter two. That makes them no less real and I've never understood why people feel they need to break a sweat justifying their (legal, adult, consensual) preferences.

William said...

Greta Garbo was said to have had a weak libido and to have lost interest in sex altogether at what we would nowadays consider a young age. I don't think your sex drive has much to do with how you look, but it certainly has a great deal to do with how often you get to act on it........Remember all those convents and monasteries. I think a lot of people were attracted to a cloistered life because negotiating sex is such an endless hassle. That option is not open for agnostics and atheists. They need monasteries and convents for non believers.

hoyden said...

I read the comment thread followed by the article. I enjoyed the article because it helped me to put words to my experience.

I grew up in the male role and could never relate to the male fixation with genital sex. My dating experience with women foundered on the expectation that I would initiate sexual activities when what I really wanted friendship.

I eventually got involved in a relationship and experienced male sex; it was nothing more than assisted masturbation.

At age 30 I did SRS and fixed the anatomy between the legs issue. Later came out as Lesbian and had similar dismal experience dating women.

Twenty years after SRS I am mastering enjoying single life. I have never had to deal with people trying to "fix" me as I almost never appear on anyone's relationship-seeking radar.

I have friends and companions who are integral in my life, as well as satisfying and rewarding career and hobbies.

I sometimes feel disappointment at my lack of success in intimate relationship. I am learning how to be happy even when I do not get what I want.

hoyden said...

One final thought. Music has always been a conduit to help me get in touch with how I feel, even as I lived in the male role and in submission to the role I intentionally repressed my feelings. Feelings were irrelevant to living life.

Now I know better and recognize that feelings are important; being out of touch with feeling is like being blind.

When I examine my musical content I see that 95% deals with partner relationship/sex; homo and hetero. I don't pretend to understand that attraction.

I also found that Star Trek Voyager became much more interesting when Seven of Nine came on board.



Robert Cook said...

"And we are laughing at you."

"We?"

Are the voices back, Paul?

Robert Cook said...

@ I Have Misplaced My Pants:

Thank you, sir or madam.

Renee said...

Before I met my husband, I wasn't attracted even to 99.9% of men.


@hoyden,

We totally fail in friendships in our society. One of the things that grates my nerves is 'I married my best friend'. Arghh.... No no no

Companionship is lovely, but its not marriage. My relationship with my friends might change a bit with marriage, but I didn't lose them.

My husband needs his friends, as well.

Æthelflæd said...

Paul said...
"Take it any way you want but I know exactly what I mean and any red pill man will know too.

And we are laughing at you."

I think there needs to be some new corollary to Godwin's Law where bringing up red pill/blue pill means you automatically lose the argument.